Incubator escapee wiki:Articles for deletion/Subvert the dominant paradigm

This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record.
The result of the debate was delete. Joyous 00:39, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC)

Subvert the dominant paradigmEdit

The paradigm article says, or can easily be edited to say, everything that needs to be said about this phrase, which is either a careless misuse of the Kuhnian concept or a campy play on its careless misuse -- but isn't deserving of its own article either way. --Christofurio 21:53, Dec 30, 2004 (UTC)

del. wikipedia is not dictionary of slang. Mikkalai 23:39, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Delete. Catch-phrase supposedly used by nameless "activists". It would be an unusual catch-phrase that would warrant an article on its own, and this isn't it. --BM 00:48, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Delete, coffee mug slogans are not inherently notable. Wyss 01:41, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Delete, probable hoax. It would be a terrible catchphrase. Rje 01:58, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Neutral: Yes, it is a catchphrase. I've even seen it on bumperstickers (but, hey, I live in Seattle). -- Jmabel | Talk 08:16, Dec 31, 2004 (UTC)
Keep. 4,940 google hits. Christofurio is correct: the slogan (and meme) is a deliberate bastardization of Thomas Kuhn's paradigm concept, as the meme explicitly endorses the antithesis of what Kuhn espoused. The article could be expanded to describe the origin and use of the phrase by fringe groups in American culture, along the lines of What would Jesus do?, Shit happens, Hacked By Chinese!, and All your base are belong to us. --Viriditas | Talk 12:25, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I'm glad that you've endorsed one of my proposed interpretations of the phrase. But the reason I nominated it for deletion is that under neither reading does this seem at all notable. Further, I'd be happy to vote to delete shit happens as well, but that's not the issue before us at the moment. If there's anything to be said here, put it in either paradigm or Thomas Kuhn or the like. --Christofurio 19:13, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)

Delete: It's true that it's a popular bumper sticker, but the thing about bumper stickers is that their sayings are purchased and endorsed by people with widely divergent understandings. Some might put on the "Visualize Whirled Peas" sticker because it's funny, while others may do so to make fun of the EST- and positive thinking-derived world peace group that Lenon liked, and others may hate hippies. The slogan independently of the bumper sticker has been used by, again, widely divergent groups. Some mean "subvert" as in the "detourment" of Guy DeBorg, and others mean "subvert" as revolution. In other words, there is no one thing behind the meme, so a discussion of it is inappropriate because it is not a subject in its own right. The groups that use it are proper for discussion, but a phrase that is now a badge worn by suburbanites and revolutionaries has lost its ideological content. Geogre 13:48, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. The slogan is clearly and consistently used by disparate fringe groups (and individuals) to describe the process of overturning the opinion of the status quo on any given subject. The "ideological content" of the slogan has been preserved. --Viriditas | Talk 14:17, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well, my point is that it's not quite at the level of "Have a nice day" or "Shit happens," but it's more meaningless than "Organize!" I'm not against discussion of the groups that formed the meme and a discussion of how it has spread within the articles on those groups, but the fact that the groups have been lost is testimony to how the ideology has been evacuated. Marx argued, in the Gundrisse, that the moment a genre has a name, it has lost its activity in ideology. Well, something like that happens with slogans: they're successful only so long as everyone who puts on the button remembers that they're supporting the SDS or Acorn or PIRG. Geogre 14:49, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion or on the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.